the tip of the iceberg, Ray Davis - updated

UPDATE: Marc Grossman, who took over for the late Richard Holbrooke, is sorry but he doesn't have answers to some of the questions.

Ambassador Grossman emphasized that, "US was not walking away from the region". He said that US would stand by Pakistan and will also work with the armed forces to defeat the terrorist forces. Besides making the usual statements about US desiring a peaceful, stable and prosperous Pakistan, the visiting ambassador made an interesting observation when he remarked, "US-Pakistan relationship must be based on mutual interest, challenge is to find that mutual interest". The paucity of time did not allow for asking the ambassador that clearly someone must have moved the goal posts in the recent weeks otherwise everyone had been led to believe that the two governments had agreed on mutual-interests a long time back. Ten years down the road, fighting a full-scale war against a commonly identified enemy, billions being poured in by US and still we face the challenge of discovering our mutual interests? Interesting reality check, indeed.
Ooh, ouch. Read it all.

pic from: http://www.bradblog.com/?p=7439


We are on the same page as Hamid Gul.

March 7, 2011: Hamid Gul: US fighting undeclared war against Pakistan through Special Mission Forces

ISLAMABAD, (SANA): Former Director General Inter-Services-Intelligence Lt. Gen. (retd) Hameed Gull has said that the killer of two Pakistanis, a US citizen Raymond Davis punishment would be based on the principles of justice, adding that if America would not accepted it, then there is fear of closure of supply line to NATO and US forces present in Afghanistan.
He said that the US is fighting undeclared war against Pakistan, adding that for revelation of the tetails of this war Raymond Davis should be trialed in Pakistan.
In an interview with a private TB channel, Hameed Gul said that in the result of judicial trial everything would be cleared, adding that 1200 American’s like Raymond Davis are working in Pakistan against the sovereignty, and stability of the of Pakistan.
He said that now all the cards are in the hands of Pakistan and US spy agency CIA is helpless, adding that if Pakistan would firmly stand on its point of view on Davis then America have to nee down before Pakistan. He said that it is the old stunt of US to threaten the countries and on any opposition the US leave its stance and reconciliate with that country as it had reconciliated with North Korea, China, Cuba and Iran.
He said that the article of President Asif Ali Zardari, which he had written in US paper Washington Post on Saturday, has sent a good message to US regarding the Raymond issue, adding that sending of this kind of message was very necessary at the crucial moment facing by Pakistan. He said that we don’t want to fight against America but US should have to respect the sovereignty, integrity and law of Pakistan.
He said that there is a story behind Raymond Davis and America want to hide it. He said that the Raymond Davis intentionally murdered two Pakistanis in Lahore but why he did this it is the problem and we will come to know soon about the story after the judicial probe.
He said that in the book of Bob Woodward, Obama’s Wars’ he wrote that there is 3000 Special Missions Force of Obama, I think Raymond Davis is also part of that special mission force. Raymond was at the special mission and may be, he is working against our nuclear program, to create unrest in Pakistan or drone attacks this should be brought in front of nation after the investigations.
He said that why America fighting hidden war in Pakistan this story should be brought in front of nation, adding that the issue of Raymond Davis is not only the issue of the families of victims but it the issue of whole Pakistani nation.
Hameed Gul said that the justice system of Pakistan is same like the US and America should respect the decision of the Pakistani judiciary in Raymond issue.

As we have been putting our heads together in the last couple of posts and comments, we see a strong possibility that something like the following may have happened.


  • That Raymond Davis was not alone in his car...?
  • That the people following him were ISI and saw who he was with...?
  • That this person was not an American, otherwise Davis could have met with him in secure quarters...?
  • And that this person should not have been with Ray Davis...?
  • That therefore Ray Davis had to murder the people who saw them together and call for rescue...?
  • That the rescue succeeded in getting this person out of the situation...?
  • And that Ray Davis sacrificed himself by going in another direction to create a distraction...?


In other developments...

Families 'turn down' settlement offers
Zahra Faizan, the widow of Faizan Haider, told The Express Tribune that she had been contacted by a man who introduced himself as an interpreter for the US consulate. She said the man had urged her to consider a diyat settlement permitted in Islam. She said she had turned down the offer. She said she would wait for the court verdict in the case.

...Imran Haider, Faizan’s brother, said some US consulate officials had wanted to meet him but he had refused to see them. He said he had told them that he was not interested in withdrawing the case. Imran Haider had earlier opened a bank account and made public appeals for donations to help pursue the case against Davis. He had reportedly not taken Zahra into confidence in this regard and had told her to shun media.

Waseem Shamshad, Faheem’s brother, refused to discuss the matter, saying that he would make a decision once a serious offer was made.
ISI redefining terms of engagement with CIA before Davis immunity row settlement

According to an official privy to the ongoing negotiations, the Davis issue, although still primary for the US, has been overtaken by other matters pertaining to working of the CIA in Pakistan, the operational freedom the CIA had been enjoying and more specifically its ties with the ISI. 

Davis's fate hinges to a large extent on the outcome of this CIA-ISI dialogue, the Dawn quoted a source, as saying.
The ISI believes that the CIA has betrayed it. Although their complex relationship was always marred by mutual distrust, this time the ISI officials look particularly perturbed over the CIA reportedly developing its own network of undeclared spies and disregarding their institution and sacrifices of their colleagues, 300 of whom have been killed during the ongoing war on terror.

...But even as Pakistani officials claim that they were caught unawares about the CIA developing its network of spies and mounting undeclared operations, the Americans insist that Pakistanis were fully aware of the activities that are now being questioned, the report added. However, there were unconfirmed claims that the CIA in its bid to pacify the situation, which is deteriorating fast, has already started withdrawing into its shell by removing some of its men from Pakistan and cutting down on certain questionable activities.
A Pakistani general said the row had definitely impacted the Pak-US military-to-military relationship because the ISI was a services intelligence agency and an extension of military, but on the brighter side, both sides continued to engage each other for resolving their disputes.
A senior American official seconded his view, saying: "We are walking with the pebble in the shoe."

Reading between the lines there, this also points to a much larger context in which the US has betrayed Pakistan... big time.... and has been caught.

US agencies involved in terrorism, subversive activities

LAHORE: Jamaat e Islami chief, Syed Munawar Hasan, has said the US agencies were causing suicide attacks through hired people and the CIA and Black Water were involved in terrorism and subversive activities in the country.
He has exhorted the army to stop military operation in the tribal areas and start action against the US agencies and the thousands of theirs terrorists. He was addressing a huge JI rally at Multan Road protesting against the possible release and deportation of double-murderer Raymond Davis and to press for the arrest of Ibadur Rahman’s killers.
Announcing that every government effort to free Raymond Davis would be foiled, Syed Munawar Hasan urged the masses to stand by the JI in order to get rid of cowardly and the US puppets ruling the country.
He told the protestors that the JI had set up a legal committee for the registration of a murder case against the US Consul General. 
The US Consul General being one Carmela Conroy.

See: looking up the chain of command

Finally, the pressure on the Pakistani military continues to grow. Admiral Mike Mullen, General David Petraeus, General Ashfaq Kayani -- these are the people in negotiations about releasing Davis. Kayani is being pressured.

The downside of US friendship

...The US administration wants Raymond Davis back safe and sound. Gen Kayani’s friends in Washington are now being sternly asked by their political bosses to use all their goodwill in this regard. They are willing to negotiate procedural matters with Pakistan but on the substantive issue of Davis’s immunity they refer to the red line drawn by the US president who called the killer of Pakistani citizens “our diplomat in Pakistan”.
Simply put, the US wants the Pakistan Army and the ISI to shoot the trouble for them.
This places Gen Kayani and his men in an unenviable domestic situation. While the matter of the US spy is in the courts, it has become an open secret that the courts are not the place where his fate shall be decided. Political leadership in Islamabad and Lahore and even foreign service officers state in off-the-record conversations that the final verdict has to come from the Pindi-Aabpara combine — a reference to the military and the ISI headquarters.

...A friendly gesture from Gen Kayani in response to unfriendly actions from Washington — intelligence operations against allies fall in that category — would be tantamount to indirectly endorsing them. No one from the army and the ISI has yet explained to the nation the size of the iceberg of CIA activities in Pakistan, whose small tip is Raymond Davis. Neither has there been any honest assessment of the stark intelligence failure in countering US activities on Pakistani soil. These are hard questions that Gen Kayani is expected to ask of Mullen and Leon Panetta, the CIA director. If he does not, and is seen ‘shooting the trouble’ for Washington he is unlikely to win medals at home. But not delivering is also not an option. A friend in need is a friend indeed is what the Americans are saying. The Pakistan Army high command has to choose its options carefully.

General David Petraeus (R) and Pakistan's Chief of Army Staff General Ashfaq Kayani, AFP Image

Now we will probably get to see the homogeneous nature of military culture, as described by Kay Griggs. We guess he will cave in and release Davis.

We recall watching a Pakistani military commander during the floods being interviewed on CNN. We were not impressed.

Also, there's a reason why we picked a photo of Kayani with Petraeus.

All the same, we think it is getting harder and harder for the evil to execute their plans. Things keep going wrong. Little Acts of God keep happening.


Penny said...

Hey AP!

The US has been fighting a covert war against Pakistan for years now.

Zardari;'we don’t want to fight against America but US should have to respect the sovereignty, integrity and law of Pakistan'

That is like stating the obvious.

Since when would the US respect the sovereignty of any nation?

Zardari would be well aware of this.

As for the claim that Pakistan is aware of the activities of the covert operatives.

That is ludicrous. To an extent.

I am sure that there are some factions within Pakistan that are so aware, they are participatory.

On the other hand, I am sure there are many people who haven't got a clue.

Interesting post.

Anonymous said...

Who was in the car with Davis?

Dawood Ibrahim?

- Aangirfan

A. Peasant said...

hi Penny,

i agree that there are factions within Pakistan and also within the US military. for one thing the JSOC operates outside the US military chain of command. that is a faction by definition.

how many innocent people have been murdered due to these activities only God knows.

A. Peasant said...

we have no idea who was in the car.

Anonymous said...

The Dawn source quoted below (from your post AP - which is excellent btm) would most likely be from inside the ISI-
this time the ISI officials look particularly perturbed over the CIA reportedly developing its own network of undeclared spies and disregarding their institution and sacrifices of their colleagues, 300 of whom have been killed during the ongoing war on terror.

I think we have the real targets of the drone attacks now and it is pretty easy to see now why the ISI is so suddenly pissed off at the CIA and openly stating that they have been betrayed. (Why are they always surprised? Yeah I know we've been there :) )

We can also see why they continued in the face of such a high failure rate with so many civilian deaths. Many weren't civilians at all and the ISI weren't about to announce that these people were their own operatives.

Now the question is, "Why are the CIA taking out the ISI spy network in the Tribal Areas and replacing them with their own?"

Or to quote Hamid Gull, 'He (Gull) said that the Raymond Davis intentionally murdered two Pakistanis in Lahore but why he did this it is the problem.

The ISI should have seen this coming because the CIA have done this before . . . in Afghanistan. The Taliban was a creature of the ISI (and the CIA originally) but were rounded up and summarily executed by the invading Americans and were replaced by traitors and patsies after a period to put up a token resistance to the occupying forces of NATO and the US to justify their presence.

And for why? to use Afghanistan as a base to destroy Pakistan and remove them and their nuclear weapons from the equation of the ever increasing war against Muslims - 'The Clash of Civilisations'? I think so.

The person in the car with Davis would have to be the one supplying the names and locations of the ISI agents to become targets. Therefore he(?) would have to be the mole inside ISI. This mole is critical to the US campaign to cripple and even kill off the ISI. (I would not like to be in this mole's shoes when he is caught).

I think this rules out Dawood Ibrahim, Aangirfan. Whadya think?

A. Peasant said...

absolutely stunning James.

and why would the US behave in such a despicable manner, absolutely treacherous, to our ally Pakistan?

we know the answer to that question.

Anonymous said...

Thanks, AP!

another quote from the the Dawn source you linked to,
"There have been seven or eight major attacks on the ISI, whereas there has been only one on a CIA post in Khost," said an official, while comparing the brunt borne by the two spy outfits."

There's a good chance these attacks are perpetrated by 'taliban' trained in Afghanistan by the SAS and flown into Pakistan via their black helicopters.

And the ISI knows the CIA is running them and that 8 to 1 is no coincidence or mistake.

Bit by bit it is all coming unravelled.

Anonymous said...

I should have identified which link.
This one

A. Peasant said...

that was the Defne Bayrak thing, the widow of the bomber who killed the agents in Khost.

those agents allegedly killed some schoolchildren in Afghanistan.

link is now defunct, imagine my shock:


then they were killed, and it was blamed on al qaeda, and then defne was used to push forward the narrative about dangerous women.

A. Peasant said...

asia times, October 2009:

Helicopter Rumors Refuse to Die

"This story, in one form or another, is being repeated throughout northern Afghanistan. Dozens of people claim to have seen Taliban fighters disembark from foreign helicopters in several provinces. The local talk is of the insurgency being consciously moved north, with international troops ferrying fighters in from the volatile south, to create mayhem in a new location.

Helicopters are almost exclusively the domains of foreign forces in Afghanistan; the international military controls the air space and has a virtual monopoly on aircraft. So when Afghans see choppers, they think foreign military."


A13 said...

Hi Guys, just having a bit of a think..
I'm going to throw in my 2cents.
just speculating that the "other" person in the car with davis was not of the ISI but rather, one of the Dual Nationality personages in the Pakistan National Assembly..
I can understand the ISI connection but, with the information that there is an ongoing investegation into these dual nationals within, having very prominent positions at the ministerial level, one would also come to the conclusion it could well have been a big fish, but one that could easily slip away into the crowd..and flee from the scene.
just a speculation of course...
Great post AP.
Fantastic comments James :)
Certainly is food for thought.
Cheers A13

haha, WV = shmyc

Anonymous said...

Hi A13, Yes it could be someone outside ISI. They would need some authority over it to have access to specific information on the ISI spies. But too high up the chain and the information would not be readily available. It could be requested, for sure, but then the request becomes a flag. I think it would have to be someone who would have the info as part of their job or oversight responsibilities. If that included a dual nationality then they would be a prime suspect, for sure. Or it could be something I haven't considered at all :)

Good point on the pakistani nationality being able to disappear into the crowd easily. AP made that observation too somewhere. Great minds!

It's nice having you working on this too. it helps to bounce off each other

A. Peasant said...

hi A13. yes good thinking. i had made the point about the person being able to blend into the crowd to James offline, so yes was also thinking that if it was another foreigner that would have been noted by witnesses somewhere in the initial statements.

i still think there's probably some clues to be found but they could be in Urdu on the Pakistan websites, which would obviously make them hard to find.

hopefully the story will out.

aferrismoon said...

Buckminster-Fuller wrote that 'universe is finite yet not simultaneously apprehendable'.

So no-one can have it all [ which apparently is the evolutionary drive for some of the more insect-like humans]. As no-one knows everything there will always be 'little acts of God'.

I'd like to imagine that this is the end-times of the Insect Empire, gorging themselves on misery, attacking anything that moves in case its a threat, their path swept by their enabling journalists - psychic attack dogs.

The clue is this post and its comments among many like it.
Its gratis
It attracts intelligent thinking
It only continues for its attempts at accuracy
Oh and the clincher - doesn't try to persuade people to go out and blithely massacre other for freedomness
+ opeds from Orly :)


A. Peasant said...

haha, Ferris, you have the coolest way of putting thing.

we certainly do not want any blithe massacres for freedomness.

Peter said...

Breathtaking post AP.
I am linking the Kay Griggs link to my blog.(Her analysis has always cut to the core)
***Little Acts of God keep happening***
Bowing low to your industrious efforts.

Penny said...

Richard Holbrooke

every time I read that name...

I guess his brand of evil just continues on

Anonymous said...

Is this where it is leading?


Anonymous said...

"US-Pakistan relationship must be based on mutual interest, challenge is to find that mutual interest".

What a bizarre (but revealing) thing to say

A. Peasant said...

many humble thanks Peter. yes, Kay's interview might prove to be very useful as these events unfold, as we see various bonds tested.

Holbrook. don't he and Hilary look absolutely guilty as sin in that pic?

oh no not the neanderthals again Dubs...

James, indeed. it's one of those truthy things that slip out that is supposed to be finessed but isn't. W used to do it all the time.

legal mumbo jumbo

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